It’s okay, though, because you’re not alone. There are many straight men who, because they possibly lack any serious reason to identify themselves as moral people, resort to self-aggrandizement on the basis they “chose” the right sex to be attracted to.
Arch says”
Not so Saffire! I pity those afflicted with the sexual retardation. I understand that they are helpless victims of the disorder. One of the traits of the disorder is denial that they have any disorder what so ever. They consistently work to normalize the condition to be acceptable to normal society. This is merely not facing the reality of being helplessly disabled. We do not ask the mentally retarded individuals in our society to be accepted as normal. Why should we accept the sexually retarded individuals to be any more so?
I didn’t choose the way I turned out sexually normal any more than you chose the way you turned out sexually retarded. Make the best of your disability without infringing upon the norm or altering the reality of the disorder. We are all human beings despite the affliction of some. As far as sin is concerned, I think that those who willingly partake in the abnormal sexual practices are aware of the wrongness of the act and can refrain as Catholic priests do by self control and celibacy. After all it is not the cerebral part of your mind that is disabled, but the sexual region which has been demonstrated to be controlable. Right?
Looks like Hinderaker has posted a better description of the difference between “revision” and “Amendment” than I have.
Moreover, the “right” to homosexual marriage in California dates only to May 15, 2008, when it was created by a 4-3 vote of the California Supreme Court. Proposition 8 seeks to reverse the effect of that decision. Thus, if the right to homosexual marriage is “fundamental,” it is hard to imagine a right that wouldn’t be.
In reality, the petitioners are asking the California Supreme Court to usurp the constitutional power of the people and assert that the courts, not voters, hold ultimate authority. This certainly isn’t what California’s Constitution contemplates.
Article 2, Section 1 of that document provides:
All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for their protection, security, and benefit, and they have the right to alter or reform it when the public good may require.
There are limits, I think, to how nakedly any court will try to usurp power. The Petitioners are therefore destined to be disappointed.
I think John underestimates the chutzpah that can be found in a California courtroom.
Whether it be at the 9th circuit, the Rose Bird court of the early 80s, the Menendez trial where “Motive” to kill your parents was argued to be “Excuse”...harkening back to the old joke about Chutzpah being to plead sympathy after murdering your parents on the grounds that you are an orphan. Then there is the OJ trial that left justice unsettled until it crossed the Nevada stateline this year. The “Football” Williams trial where a gang member on video crushed the skull of a truck driver during the LA Riots and received no felony counts, only misdemeanors. Williams is in prison for a different murder now.
I don’t remember the exact words in the Scalia decision, but I seem to recall Scalia threatening to get on a plane and go straight to the 9th Circuit to hand deliver his decision, if they don’t stop disregarding the High court’s decision.
John may be right about them over reaching in the California Supremes, but nothing surprises me anymore.
Of course it’s not “normal”, in the sense that it doesn’t lead to procreation. But there are many heterosexual couples who choose not to have children. You can also say it’s not “normal” because it’s the minority (only accounting for 1 to 2% of the total population) but if that’s how you define normal, then you’re simply working on majority terms. Which is a pretty weak argument for denying people their rights.
EDIT: If someone could come up with a “cure” for homosexuality, I guarantee you the vast majority of gay people would be glad to have it! But there are also a lot of heterosexual people who might want to become gay… It would be an interesting experiment.
You know about Homosexuals Anonymous? Christian organization that helps gay people get straight? They have a high success rate from what I’ve heard in the past… Don’t think they get a lot of business though. In short, I’m calling BS on your statement there that “gays would be happy to have a cure.”
Furthermore, lets look logically at your claim that its a birth defect. You acknowledge that it is not “normal.”
If you believe in evolution, then presumably you would feel that homosexuality is something that should be fixed, if possible. We’ve talked about how it’s counter-productive, genetically. And arguing that “there exist heterosexual relationships that have no intention of reproducing” is worse than no argument at all: those couples have the potential to reproduce, homosexual couplings have no potential at all.
If you believe in a sovereign God, then this “defect” is how gays were created, but if your Sovereign God has told you how you are expected to behave, then this defect must be a trial to be endured, a temptation to be resisted.
I don’t really see much of a way you can reasonably hold your position, so as I see it, you’re arguing for what you desire.
I’m seeing a lot of hatred, anger, fear, and other generally visceral reactions to homosexuality here. The debate coming from your side is anything but logical.
But since TJ King was kind enough to break down his post, I’ll reply point by point:
1. You claim I say the law is on my side. I never said that, I said natural law is on my side. I don’t care about the law because it isn’t from God.
2.
We have asked him several times to explain how natural law allows you to force 30 million Californians to refer to Captain Sulu and his partner as Married. He never explained this and it is enough to make anyone snicker that there is a cosmic force pushing real rights aside with whatever his whim and fancy of the moment.
Here’s an interesting use of the word “force”. You don’t have to refer to gay couples as “married” if you don’t want to. You’re attempting to equate marriage with a government-issued marriage certificate. Gay people don’t care about being called “married” so much as they care about having the same legal rights a marriage certificate confers.
3.
From day one A$$fire has tried to draw a religious component into this in hopes of beating Christians and Mormons over the head with what he believes are immoral people in these Churches. The only references to Religious aspects to Prop 8 on this forum have been in response to this stupid Natural Rights argument that he brought up. A$$fire initiated a discussion of God being on his side and now he is trying to use this sword to attack minority groups, Religious groups just like his buddies in Hollywood that are persecuting different groups for their desire to live free.
I do not define my existence by my membership in various groups as you do, liberal. If Mormons choose to live a certain way, I have no interest in seeing their behavior banned, as long as it isn’t violent.
4.
A$$fire further extends his “God wants us all to be gay” theme by claiming that Homosexual acts are preordained in human beings and can not be altered by a person’s brain, or ability to control human behavior. They are like pre-programmed Zombies in Abercrombie and Fitch shirts and designer jeans. As Dan Quayle once said, the search for the gay gene could have unintended and unfortunate consequences if your parents are willing to abort you. He asks the old knee slapper, “why would anyone choose to be gay if its only a choice?” I suppose we can now explain why anyone would vote for Joe Biden,...they have a gene that makes them uncontrollably compelled to vote for complete morons that won’t shut their choppers. Who knows why people make stupid choices? That doesn’t prove god made them sneak into a public restroom with George Michael.
I never stated God wants anyone to be gay, and it’s a rather weak straw man argument to put up. Throughout human history there have been gay people. They aren’t trying to prove a political point by being gay. Nor are they trying to rile up liberals such as yourself. Changing or denying your sexual desires is, at this point in history, impossible.
As someone state in another post, there are Christian “schools” designed to treat gay people and make them become straight. There’s no evidence they work, despite being frequented by gay Christians who are tormented by their own desires.
5.
Any Man that opposes Same Sex marriage is gay
A$$fire has been on this hilarious 1970s kick that if anyone opposes Same sex marriage they must be anti-gay bigots and in his eyes anti-gay bigots are the result of a complex psychological condition that only he understands where these bigots are in reality self hating closeted gays that take out their frustration by asking that grade school children not be forced to attend Gay marriages by Public Schools.
Of course, I never said this. But it’s telling how many arguments and associations you project onto people who disagree with you. It’s a learned thing, I guess. After all, because I don’t see homosexuality as a dangerous aberration, I must be a Democrat. If only it were that simple. The truth is, on any political spectrum, you are far to the left of me. You suck the teat of the State and beg it for your right back. You want lower taxes for yourself, so you try to get someone elected who promises to do just that. But it doesn’t work, the government keeps growing. When you step back and look at your progress, the progress of the so-called “conservative” movement, it’s remarkably similar to the progress touted by the so-called “liberal” movement toward the beginning of this century. Expansion of state power.
Your political party teaches you to hate certain groups, because they pose a threat to you. It doesn’t have to be a direct threat, just a political one. You despise lazy people because they take advantage of the State with welfare. You hate gay school-teachers because they take advantage of State-run public schools to teach your children things you’d prefer they not know about. You hate gay people in general because they want the same rights conferred to married couples by the State.
The root of all of your stress, anger, and hatred is the State. It’s the gun in the room that you fight over. And at this moment it is being grabbed by your enemy - the Democrats! So it is understandable you and your Republican friends are particularly emotional lately. I’m willing to work with that.
It’s okay, though, because you’re not alone. There are many straight men who, because they possibly lack any serious reason to identify themselves as moral people, resort to self-aggrandizement on the basis they “chose” the right sex to be attracted to.
Arch says”
Not so Saffire! I pity those afflicted with the sexual retardation. I understand that they are helpless victims of the disorder. One of the traits of the disorder is denial that they have any disorder what so ever. They consistently work to normalize the condition to be acceptable to normal society. This is merely not facing the reality of being helplessly disabled. We do not ask the mentally retarded individuals in our society to be accepted as normal. Why should we accept the sexually retarded individuals to be any more so?
I didn’t choose the way I turned out sexually normal any more than you chose the way you turned out sexually retarded. Make the best of your disability without infringing upon the norm or altering the reality of the disorder. We are all human beings despite the affliction of some. As far as sin is concerned, I think that those who willingly partake in the abnormal sexual practices are aware of the wrongness of the act and can refrain as Catholic priests do by self control and celibacy. After all it is not the cerebral part of your mind that is disabled, but the sexual region which has been demonstrated to be controlable. Right?
I’m seeing a lot of hatred, anger, fear, and other generally visceral reactions to homosexuality here.
You really don’t understand the difference between disgust and fear, do you?
Figures, considering your preference for abnormal sex.
And no, there’s NOTHING natural about homosexuality. No more than pedophilia, or bestiality are “natural”.
Again, because you act somewhat dense, do not mistake disgust and loathing, for fear and hatred.
RR it has to be hatred because without that they have no argument. We have to be haters because all the arguments we get are based on love they could never be haters it’s just not who they are.
But oddly enough though they show their love for anyone that isn’t of their opinion in a way that strangely resembles hate.
Go figure.
It’s okay, though, because you’re not alone. There are many straight men who, because they possibly lack any serious reason to identify themselves as moral people, resort to self-aggrandizement on the basis they “chose” the right sex to be attracted to.
Arch says”
Not so Saffire! I pity those afflicted with the sexual retardation. I understand that they are helpless victims of the disorder. One of the traits of the disorder is denial that they have any disorder what so ever. They consistently work to normalize the condition to be acceptable to normal society. This is merely not facing the reality of being helplessly disabled. We do not ask the mentally retarded individuals in our society to be accepted as normal. Why should we accept the sexually retarded individuals to be any more so?
I didn’t choose the way I turned out sexually normal any more than you chose the way you turned out sexually retarded. Make the best of your disability without infringing upon the norm or altering the reality of the disorder. We are all human beings despite the affliction of some. As far as sin is concerned, I think that those who willingly partake in the abnormal sexual practices are aware of the wrongness of the act and can refrain as Catholic priests do by self control and celibacy. After all it is not the cerebral part of your mind that is disabled, but the sexual region which has been demonstrated to be controlable. Right?
Why you yellin??
Arch says.
John. I am not yellin. I am self-aggrandizing!! :)
It’s okay, though, because you’re not alone. There are many straight men who, because they possibly lack any serious reason to identify themselves as moral people, resort to self-aggrandizement on the basis they “chose” the right sex to be attracted to.
Arch says”
Not so Saffire! I pity those afflicted with the sexual retardation. I understand that they are helpless victims of the disorder. One of the traits of the disorder is denial that they have any disorder what so ever. They consistently work to normalize the condition to be acceptable to normal society. This is merely not facing the reality of being helplessly disabled. We do not ask the mentally retarded individuals in our society to be accepted as normal. Why should we accept the sexually retarded individuals to be any more so?
I didn’t choose the way I turned out sexually normal any more than you chose the way you turned out sexually retarded. Make the best of your disability without infringing upon the norm or altering the reality of the disorder. We are all human beings despite the affliction of some. As far as sin is concerned, I think that those who willingly partake in the abnormal sexual practices are aware of the wrongness of the act and can refrain as Catholic priests do by self control and celibacy. After all it is not the cerebral part of your mind that is disabled, but the sexual region which has been demonstrated to be controlable. Right?
Why you yellin??
Arch says.
John. I am not yellin. I am self-aggrandizing!! :)
