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Pin Heads and John"s speech
Posted: 05 September 2008 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 16 ]  
D. Miller
Total Posts:  1697
Joined  2008-05-27

“I note in passing that Jesus’ message didn’t call for government action or coercion.  We should each do for the least of brothers of our volition, because it is the right to do.  And by doing it ourselves, we become better people.”

In Jesus’ day the governments were all dictators & kings.  Our government is supposed to be under the control of the people.  I have no problem with some limited social programs, except that the programs we have now are not aimed at helping anybody who’s having a rough time, but instead are simply excuses to tax people to death and skim 80% of the money off for bureaucrats.

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In a speech to Congress, president Woodrow Wilson expressed his opinions by stating, “if there should be disloyalty, it will be dealt with with a firm hand of stern repression” and that disloyal individuals “had sacrificed their rights to civil liberties.” Possible Obama precedent?

 
 
Posted: 05 September 2008 01:56 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 17 ]

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D. Miller
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Scortch - 05 September 2008 01:39 PM

“I note in passing that Jesus’ message didn’t call for government action or coercion.  We should each do for the least of brothers of our volition, because it is the right to do.  And by doing it ourselves, we become better people.”

In Jesus’ day the governments were all dictators & kings.  Our government is supposed to be under the control of the people.  I have no problem with some limited social programs, except that the programs we have now are not aimed at helping anybody who’s having a rough time, but instead are simply excuses to tax people to death and skim 80% of the money off for bureaucrats.

Fair enough, but Jesus wasn’t calling for revolutionary change either, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s...”

I agree with you on limited social programs.

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"Government is not reason and it is not eloquence. It is force! Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.”—George Washington

 
 
Posted: 05 September 2008 02:06 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 18 ]  
W. Churchill
Total Posts:  3130
Joined  2006-11-13

Did FDR “love his country” when he put together the New Deal?  Many righties think that it was a bad deal, but the question is, did he love his country when he did it and TRY to make it better?

Did Lincoln “love his country” when he decided that the Southern States were not going to alter or abolish the Union, no matter what the Declaration of Independence said?

 
 
Posted: 05 September 2008 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 19 ]  
D. Miller
Total Posts:  1697
Joined  2008-05-27
Dwight - 05 September 2008 02:06 PM

Did FDR “love his country” when he put together the New Deal?  Many righties think that it was a bad deal, but the question is, did he love his country when he did it and TRY to make it better?

Did Lincoln “love his country” when he decided that the Southern States were not going to alter or abolish the Union, no matter what the Declaration of Independence said?

We all know what dark road is paved with good intentions....but does that mean we should give up having good intentions?

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In a speech to Congress, president Woodrow Wilson expressed his opinions by stating, “if there should be disloyalty, it will be dealt with with a firm hand of stern repression” and that disloyal individuals “had sacrificed their rights to civil liberties.” Possible Obama precedent?

 
 
Posted: 05 September 2008 02:23 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 20 ]

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B. Goldwater
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Dwight - 05 September 2008 10:55 AM

But there is more than one way to “love your country.” If you see bad stuff happening in the ghettos of Chicago and want to improve things, isn’t that “loving your country?” .

Yes, there is. Wanting to improve the ghettos is one, if indeed it is the overriding purpose of getting involved, not just to polish your resume’ for future use. Besides, he himself wrote about his not knowing what he was doing then as a Community Organizer in his book.

But to want us to withdraw, untimely, from a war that our military planners know we are winning, where our troops sacrificed life and limb to win? To mouth the meme’ of our enemies; to want us to forfeit our right to self-govern and hand over portions of the reins to the UN? To not be satisfied with criticizing our country inhouse but to go abroad and make up deficiencies of our country and our policies to talk about, just so he could get some applause? (Btw, tell me what his objective was in going to Germany!)

Are those ways of showing love for your country?

I am an immigrant. If I can see how Obama is not right for this country, how much more the natives?

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God and the Soldier, we adore,
In time of danger, not before.
The danger passed and all things righted,
God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted.

~Rudyard Kipling

 
 
Posted: 05 September 2008 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 21 ]

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D. Miller
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Dwight - 05 September 2008 02:06 PM

Did FDR “love his country” when he put together the New Deal?  Many righties think that it was a bad deal, but the question is, did he love his country when he did it and TRY to make it better?

Did Lincoln “love his country” when he decided that the Southern States were not going to alter or abolish the Union, no matter what the Declaration of Independence said?

Lincoln and FDR used radical government action to try to save America during extraordinarily difficult periods of American history.  I assume they each loved America very deeply.  I’m not suggesting that people who advocate using government to improve America do not love it.  I am saying that people who condition their affection for America on whether America adopts certain policies/actions do not love America, regardless of whether they think that they love America.  Their love is essentially transactional:  Do this, and I will love you in return.  This kind transaction, by definition, is not love.

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"Government is not reason and it is not eloquence. It is force! Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.”—George Washington

 
 
Posted: 05 September 2008 03:12 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 22 ]  
W. Churchill
Total Posts:  3130
Joined  2006-11-13
Jose31V - 05 September 2008 02:33 PM

Dwight - 05 September 2008 02:06 PM
Did FDR “love his country” when he put together the New Deal?  Many righties think that it was a bad deal, but the question is, did he love his country when he did it and TRY to make it better?

Did Lincoln “love his country” when he decided that the Southern States were not going to alter or abolish the Union, no matter what the Declaration of Independence said?

Lincoln and FDR used radical government action to try to save America during extraordinarily difficult periods of American history.  I assume they each loved America very deeply.  I’m not suggesting that people who advocate using government to improve America do not love it.  I am saying that people who condition their affection for America on whether America adopts certain policies/actions do not love America, regardless of whether they think that they love America.  Their love is essentially transactional:  Do this, and I will love you in return.  This kind transaction, by definition, is not love.

But the problem is that often the conversation goes like this.
O says “I want to change America.
x says, “America is fine the way it is.”
O says,"No it’s not, it should be better.”
x says, “You do not love your country.”

I don’t think that you can apply the same rules of loving a person, whom you accept and generally do not try to change, to loving your country, which even, or especially McCain says he wants to change a lot.  He has the immunity of all his scars gotten in the service of his country, scars which as he pointed out, Obama does not have. 

Bottom line: there is more than one way to love your country.  Righties insist on the old fashioned way, a kind of my country right or wrong...and she’s never wrong (unless maybe a lefty is at the helm).  Lefties...here’s the kind of country we SHOULD have, a better one (unless a lefty is at the helm).  Neither view contains nearly the whole truth, but then, what else is new?

 
 
Posted: 05 September 2008 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 23 ]  
D. Miller
Total Posts:  1077
Joined  2007-09-09
Dwight - 05 September 2008 03:12 PM

Jose31V - 05 September 2008 02:33 PM
Dwight - 05 September 2008 02:06 PM
Did FDR “love his country” when he put together the New Deal?  Many righties think that it was a bad deal, but the question is, did he love his country when he did it and TRY to make it better?

Did Lincoln “love his country” when he decided that the Southern States were not going to alter or abolish the Union, no matter what the Declaration of Independence said?

Lincoln and FDR used radical government action to try to save America during extraordinarily difficult periods of American history.  I assume they each loved America very deeply.  I’m not suggesting that people who advocate using government to improve America do not love it.  I am saying that people who condition their affection for America on whether America adopts certain policies/actions do not love America, regardless of whether they think that they love America.  Their love is essentially transactional:  Do this, and I will love you in return.  This kind transaction, by definition, is not love.

But the problem is that often the conversation goes like this.
O says “I want to change America.
x says, “America is fine the way it is.”
O says,"No it’s not, it should be better.”
x says, “You do not love your country.”

I don’t think that you can apply the same rules of loving a person, whom you accept and generally do not try to change, to loving your country, which even, or especially McCain says he wants to change a lot.  He has the immunity of all his scars gotten in the service of his country, scars which as he pointed out, Obama does not have. 

Bottom line: there is more than one way to love your country.  Righties insist on the old fashioned way, a kind of my country right or wrong...and she’s never wrong (unless maybe a lefty is at the helm).  Lefties...here’s the kind of country we SHOULD have, a better one (unless a lefty is at the helm).  Neither view contains nearly the whole truth, but then, what else is new?

Fair enough.  This is why I generally tend to stay from intentions as opposed to consequences of specific policy proposals.  I oppose Obama’s candidacy, because I think that his proposals will have deleterious effects on America’s foreign affairs and economy, as well as the liberty of her citizens, and I think McCain will do a better job.  However, I can’t help but notice certain aspects of Obama that I find deeply disconcerting. 

Obama is an enigma.  Furthermore, he doesn’t seem to want us to know who he is.  In his acceptance speech, he stipulated to McCain’s patriotism and demanded in return that we stipulate to his.  Why did he do this?  Why can’t we ask the question?  It seems to me that Obama wears a mask that he presents to the public, and he wants to keep us at arm’s length.  However, every time that the mask has slipped, I didn’t like what I saw:  His wife’s many remarks, Reverend Wright, the silly flag pin thing, his association with Ayers, and his attempts to prevent public disclosure of his activities in the Annenberg matter.  Compare this with McCain’s performance last night, when he essentially said, I want to be president because I love America.  And I love America so much, that I’m willing to bare my soul to you.  It’s a very stark contrast.  McCain’s show of trust makes me want to trust him, while Obama’s mistrust makes me suspicious of him.

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"Government is not reason and it is not eloquence. It is force! Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.”—George Washington

 
 
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