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House panel subpoenas top Cheney aide
Posted: 08 May 2008 02:55 AM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 16 ]

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impeachbush - 06 May 2008 03:14 PM

Gee, Grey Ghost, you hurt my feelings!

Hey, if you don’t want to face reality about these things—if you just want to create “your own reality,” as a Bush aide once famously said—why don’t you put me on Ignore?

When the Dumbass Party decides to attack International Terrorism, a REAL enemy, as vigorously as it attacks those fighting it, a FRAUDULENT enemy, I will be a happy man.  Any chance of that happening?

 
 
Posted: 08 May 2008 03:04 AM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 17 ]

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John florida - 07 May 2008 12:37 AM

IMP quote:

“This is a very good start.  If our country is ever to restore its good name, these criminals in the White House who advocated torture and other war crimes must be brought to full account by being disbarred and publicly shamed.  And then those who hired these corrupt lawyers and acted on their advice—namely, Bush, Cheney, et al.—should be put on trial for their crimes, if not in the US then at The Hague.”

Good luck with that one “CHUMP”.

OUtside of the Hothouse Left, the Islamofascists and the Treason Media where have we lost our “good name”?
And who cares what they think?

 
 
Posted: 08 May 2008 10:19 AM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 18 ]  
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Al de Chicago - 08 May 2008 03:04 AM

John florida - 07 May 2008 12:37 AM
IMP quote:

“This is a very good start.  If our country is ever to restore its good name, these criminals in the White House who advocated torture and other war crimes must be brought to full account by being disbarred and publicly shamed.  And then those who hired these corrupt lawyers and acted on their advice—namely, Bush, Cheney, et al.—should be put on trial for their crimes, if not in the US then at The Hague.”

Good luck with that one “CHUMP”.

OUtside of the Hothouse Left, the Islamofascists and the Treason Media where have we lost our “good name”?
And who cares what they think?

Why is it all the leftists want tails outside our court system?Our laws just don’t suit them.

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Posted: 08 May 2008 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 19 ]

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Al de Chicago - 08 May 2008 03:04 AM

John florida - 07 May 2008 12:37 AM
IMP quote:

“This is a very good start.  If our country is ever to restore its good name, these criminals in the White House who advocated torture and other war crimes must be brought to full account by being disbarred and publicly shamed.  And then those who hired these corrupt lawyers and acted on their advice—namely, Bush, Cheney, et al.—should be put on trial for their crimes, if not in the US then at The Hague.”

Good luck with that one “CHUMP”.

OUtside of the Hothouse Left, the Islamofascists and the Treason Media where have we lost our “good name”?
And who cares what they think?

Hitler did not care what the rest of the world thought either, as I recall.
Actually, America as a nation ought to be hanging its head in shame over the war crimes committed by those in charge, since the ones committing the crimes have no shame the rest of the decent americans are the ones who have to carry their shame.
How many “Good Germans” went to jail, hanged etc for war crimes?Fellas, like it or not, torture is not on the approved list around the world, those who engage in that sort of behavior and are caught do have a pretty good chance to answer some pointed questions about their behavior and if the answers are incorrect, the results can and ought to be most unplesant.
Look how many years it took to round up most of the escaped Nazis?
Simon Wesienthal and co. did a very good job.

How many years did it take for the former black baron of Chile?
Pinochet?  Spain finally nailed his butt and several spots around the world are taking some hard looks at some of our lead war criminals, you don’t have to like it.
How ever, not being a Nazi and all, I am against that kind of behavior and hope that the folks who have done the deed are cleansed from society, as they deserve to be.

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Posted: 08 May 2008 11:16 AM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 20 ]  
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KoreaVet - 06 May 2008 09:10 PM

OldJim -

On the odd chance you ever write anything coherent, can you possibly provide links to the articles you quote? I showed you how to do that when you first started posting here, apparently to no avail.

And, for God’s sake, the WWII trial city is spelled N-U-R-E-M-B-E-R-G.

Sometimes I get in a bit of a rush and hit keys wrong etc.

The articiles I posted are clearly marked except #5 I beleive, thats form Yoo Torture Memos, there are many of them, google search.

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The
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Posted: 08 May 2008 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 21 ]  
A. Lincoln
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God forbid we waterboard any of these wonderful young future Democrat voting immigrants!

terrorists.jpg

It’s getting more difficult to tell them apart from the left.

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Haneek rabbak - - Nanat sag suk mizaneh! - - Islam: Religion of Evil!

“To ERR is human, to FORGIVE divine. HOWEVER, neither is Marine Corps Policy.”

:coolgrin:

 
 
Posted: 08 May 2008 02:19 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 22 ]  
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oldjim - 08 May 2008 11:16 AM

KoreaVet - 06 May 2008 09:10 PM
OldJim -

On the odd chance you ever write anything coherent, can you possibly provide links to the articles you quote? I showed you how to do that when you first started posting here, apparently to no avail.

And, for God’s sake, the WWII trial city is spelled N-U-R-E-M-B-E-R-G.

Sometimes I get in a bit of a rush and hit keys wrong etc.

The articiles I posted are clearly marked except #5 I beleive, thats form Yoo Torture Memos, there are many of them, google search.

Jim I don’t care about spelling that’s Altans thing,I commit enough sins of my own to cast stones.

But as to my adopted country’s good name. How can you even bring that canard up? When you have Germany,France ,Italy,Poland and so on all with pro American governments and political leaders that ran on pro U.S. platforms and won big. As for the rest of them “WHO GIVES A CRAP”!!

They didn’t like us before and nothing has changed as a matter of fact you have countries that had an anti American attitude go the other way. So much for that nonsense,My country is still on of the most respected and generous countries on the planet.What Country are you from??

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We can have no “50-50” allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.

 
 
Posted: 08 May 2008 10:22 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 23 ]

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oldjim - 08 May 2008 11:08 AM

Al de Chicago - 08 May 2008 03:04 AM
John florida - 07 May 2008 12:37 AM
IMP quote:

“This is a very good start.  If our country is ever to restore its good name, these criminals in the White House who advocated torture and other war crimes must be brought to full account by being disbarred and publicly shamed.  And then those who hired these corrupt lawyers and acted on their advice—namely, Bush, Cheney, et al.—should be put on trial for their crimes, if not in the US then at The Hague.”

Good luck with that one “CHUMP”.

OUtside of the Hothouse Left, the Islamofascists and the Treason Media where have we lost our “good name”?
And who cares what they think?

Hitler did not care what the rest of the world thought either, as I recall.  As far as Hitler goes most of his acts were sanctioned by German law whether we like them or not.  And as is typical when his name is brought into a discussion it is irrelevant and shows the vacuity of the argument of those invoking him.  Hitler made war on defenseless people often based upon their religion GW is making war on those who have attacked us and have made clear they intend to destroy us and all we represent.
Actually, America as a nation ought to be hanging its head in shame over the war crimes committed by those in charge, since the ones committing the crimes have no shame the rest of the decent americans are the ones who have to carry their shame.  You can put on sack cloth and pour ashes over your head as for as I am concerned but I see no shame in leaders acting against a vicious enemy which doesn’t blink at placing bombs in markets, schools and areas devoted to civilian life.  You can protect those beasts under the name of “principle” or you can allow Justice to operate.
How many “Good Germans” went to jail, hanged etc for war crimes?Fellas, like it or not, torture is not on the approved list around the world, those who engage in that sort of behavior and are caught do have a pretty good chance to answer some pointed questions about their behavior and if the answers are incorrect, the results can and ought to be most unplesant.  Torture to panty-waists is putting underwear on a Killer’s head.  Perhaps you should review what was actually torture before whining about what the US sanctions.
Look how many years it took to round up most of the escaped Nazis?
Simon Wesienthal and co. did a very good job.

How many years did it take for the former black baron of Chile?
Pinochet?  Spain finally nailed his butt and several spots around the world are taking some hard looks at some of our lead war criminals, you don’t have to like it.  What a strange world you live in thinking that American officials would be pursued as Nazis.  Rather pitiful actually.
How ever, not being a Nazi and all, I am against that kind of behavior and hope that the folks who have done the deed are cleansed from society, as they deserve to be.

The terrorists we have detained have yet to receive anything close to the violence and evil they have perpetrated no matter what the Treason Media hyperventilates over.

 
 
Posted: 10 May 2008 09:14 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 24 ]  
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John florida - 08 May 2008 02:19 PM

oldjim - 08 May 2008 11:16 AM
KoreaVet - 06 May 2008 09:10 PM
OldJim -

On the odd chance you ever write anything coherent, can you possibly provide links to the articles you quote? I showed you how to do that when you first started posting here, apparently to no avail.

And, for God’s sake, the WWII trial city is spelled N-U-R-E-M-B-E-R-G.

Sometimes I get in a bit of a rush and hit keys wrong etc.

The articiles I posted are clearly marked except #5 I beleive, thats form Yoo Torture Memos, there are many of them, google search.

Jim I don’t care about spelling that’s Altans thing,I commit enough sins of my own to cast stones.

But as to my adopted country’s good name. How can you even bring that canard up? When you have Germany,France ,Italy,Poland and so on all with pro American governments and political leaders that ran on pro U.S. platforms and won big. As for the rest of them “WHO GIVES A CRAP”!!

They didn’t like us before and nothing has changed as a matter of fact you have countries that had an anti American attitude go the other way. So much for that nonsense,My country is still on of the most respected and generous countries on the planet.What Country are you from??

I was born in 1936, in the Sooner State, Ok. I have been a citizen all my life, I am a vet and yes, I for one am ashamed, not of america, however our current crop of leaders are a boil on the butt of the human race, the nazi party was all so, being a war child and all, I have more than a slight amount of what HONOR is and I can tell you right flat out, our leadership has no honor. 
Honor is unkown in Washington, D.C. at this time. I do hope it changes, tho I am more than somewhat doubtful.
Now John, I know you are not a big fan of attys.
Read it anyway, you might learn something.


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Published on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 by Associated Press
Judge Lamentably Dismisses Lawsuit Against Rumsfeld
by Matt Apuzzo
WASHINGTON — Former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld cannot be tried on allegations of torture in overseas military prisons, a federal judge said Tuesday in a case he described as “lamentable.”

U.S. District Judge Thomas F. Hogan threw out a lawsuit brought on behalf of nine former prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. He said Rumsfeld cannot be held personally responsible for actions taken in connection with his government job.

The lawsuit contends the prisoners were beaten, suspended upside down from the ceiling by chains, urinated on, shocked, sexually humiliated, burned, locked inside boxes and subjected to mock executions.

Lawyers for the American Civil Liberties Union and Human Rights First had argued that Rumsfeld and top military officials disregarded warnings about the abuse and authorized the use of illegal interrogation tactics that violated the constitutional and human rights of prisoners.

Hogan appeared conflicted during arguments last year. On one hand, he said he was hesitant to allow allegations of torture to go unheard. On the other hand, he said the case was unprecedented.

“This is a lamentable case,” Hogan began his 58-page opinion Tuesday.

No matter how appealing it might seem to use the courts to correct allegations of severe abuses of power, Hogan wrote, government officials are immune from such lawsuits. Additionally, foreigners held overseas are not normally afforded U.S. constitutional rights.

“Despite the horrifying torture allegations,” Hogan said, he could find no case law supporting the lawsuit, which he previously had described as unprecedented.

Allowing the case to go forward, Hogan said in December, might subject government officials to all sorts of political lawsuits. Even Osama bin Laden could sue, Hogan said, claiming two American presidents threatened to have him murdered.

“There is no getting around the fact that authorizing monetary damages remedies against military officials engaged in an active war would invite enemies to use our own federal courts to obstruct the Armed Forces’ ability to act decisively and without hesitation,” Hogan wrote Tuesday.

Had the Rumsfeld lawsuit been allowed to go forward, attorneys for the ACLU might have been able to force the Pentagon to disclose what officials knew about abuses such as those at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and what was done to stop it.

“The court ruled that innocent civilians tortured by the United States cannot seek recourse in the federal courts to hold responsible U.S. officials legally liable,” said ACLU attorney Lucas Guttentag. “We believe that the law and Constitution require more, and that the former secretary of defense must be held accountable for his policies that led to this abuse.”

The Justice Department had no immediate comment.

Hogan also dismissed the charges against other officials named in the lawsuit: retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, former Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski and Col. Thomas M. Pappas.

Karpinski, whose Army Reserve unit was in charge of the Abu Ghraib prison, was demoted and is the highest-ranking officer punished in the scandal. Sanchez, who commanded U.S. forces in Iraq, retired from the Army and said his career was a casualty of the prison scandal


DOES THIS MAKE YOU PROUD OF RUMSFELD, ETC? THIS IS HONOR ?
Its war crimes and with luck, they will get what they deserve, and that might being to restore the good name of this great land. I will not say nation, that would imply that I approve of their nazi type behavior.
You don’t have to like it and I dam sure do not.
I am 100 per cent against torture.
Now, if your want to talk about turning some of those splendid places in glass ash trays, I am open minded about that, not about torture.

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pacifists
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Posted: 10 May 2008 09:18 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 25 ]  
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Al de Chicago - 08 May 2008 03:04 AM

John florida - 07 May 2008 12:37 AM
IMP quote:

“This is a very good start.  If our country is ever to restore its good name, these criminals in the White House who advocated torture and other war crimes must be brought to full account by being disbarred and publicly shamed.  And then those who hired these corrupt lawyers and acted on their advice—namely, Bush, Cheney, et al.—should be put on trial for their crimes, if not in the US then at The Hague.”

Good luck with that one “CHUMP”.

OUtside of the Hothouse Left, the Islamofascists and the Treason Media where have we lost our “good name”?
And who cares what they think?

So, you dont care what a Federal Court thinks?  The Federal Courts are the treason media?
Are you teaching your children to pull the wings of flies and bees and stuff? Or may how to torture dogs, so they will get an early start?
Good fvking grief, the public schools are doing an amazing job of developing stupidity to a major degree. Get help.

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The
pacifists
always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them

 
 
Posted: 10 May 2008 10:43 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 26 ]  
W. Churchill
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So Jim I read the post and all you brought was “CHARGES AND ALLEGATIONS”. No proof of anything. All you had was a court that could not hear a case based on law. All you posted was comments from the former AMERICAN COMMUNIST PARTY EI THE ACLU.

But you did bring one piece in that I found interesting and that was.

“Additionally, foreigners held overseas are not normally afforded U.S. constitutional rights.”

This little line kind of blows away all the nonsense that you and melimouth were talking about CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF PRISONERS HELD IN CUBA,not to mention any GC rights you would like to afford them.

Thanks for the info.Oh and one more thing why would i trust THE ACLU NOW OR EVER.After all this you sunk Melimouth.

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We can have no “50-50” allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.

 
 
Posted: 11 May 2008 09:13 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 27 ]  
W. Churchill
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John florida - 10 May 2008 10:43 PM

So Jim I read the post and all you brought was “CHARGES AND ALLEGATIONS”. No proof of anything. All you had was a court that could not hear a case based on law. All you posted was comments from the former AMERICAN COMMUNIST PARTY EI THE ACLU.

But you did bring one piece in that I found interesting and that was.


“Additionally, foreigners held overseas are not normally afforded U.S. constitutional rights.”

This little line kind of blows away all the nonsense that you and melimouth were talking about CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF PRISONERS HELD IN CUBA,not to mention any GC rights you would like to afford them.

Thanks for the info.Oh and one more thing why would i trust THE ACLU NOW OR EVER.After all this you sunk Melimouth.

John, if it makes you happy to support war criminals, be my guest.
I however do not support war criminals.

Your aware no doubt that in the up coming trial, Brig. General Hartman of the USAF, has been kicked off the border, and I would be its becausee he has refused to answer as to whether or not he thinks water boarding is tortuter.  I will refer you to that where you can read it for yourself.

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Posted: 11 May 2008 09:14 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 28 ]  
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[edit

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Posted: 11 May 2008 09:32 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 29 ]  
W. Churchill
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Hogan also dismissed the charges against other officials named in the lawsuit: retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, former Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski and Col. Thomas M. Pappas.

Karpinski, whose Army Reserve unit was in charge of the Abu Ghraib prison, was demoted and is the highest-ranking officer punished in the scandal. Sanchez, who commanded U.S. forces in Iraq, retired from the Army and said his career was a casualty of the prison scandal

DOES THIS MAKE YOU PROUD OF RUMSFELD, ETC? THIS IS HONOR ?

In a rebuke, a military judge has disqualified a key Pentagon general from any role overseeing the Guantánamo trial of Osama bin Laden’s driver, saying he doubted the general’s impartiality in the case.

The judge, Navy Capt. Keith Allred, ordered the Pentagon’s general counsel to assign a new official to oversee the trial in place of Air Force Brig. Gen. Thomas W.Hartmann, the Defense Department’s legal adviser for military commissions.

.

Clearly the replaced person is not being left there to enable a kangaroo court process.

So now it is being spun that review and oversight is bad.

It might be that some have solid objections.

RIGHTS-US: Guantánamo Suspects Face Death, Fair Trial Doubts
By William Fisher

NEW YORK, Feb 19 (IPS) - As the U.S. moves towards holding death-sentence trials for six Guantánamo Bay detainees alleged to have plotted the Sep. 11 attacks, legal scholars and human rights advocates are questioning not only the six-year-long process and timing of the charges, but also whether the accused could ever receive fair trials.

On Feb. 11, charges were issued against the six, including the chief alleged organizer of the Sep. 11 attacks, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. The U.S. military outlined 168 charges, including conspiracy, murder, attacking civilians, terrorism and supporting terrorism.

All six accused will be tried together by military commissions—highly- controversial criminal courts run by the U.S. armed forces—at the U.S. Naval base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. They will be the first trials of detainees held at Guantánamo.

One former detainee, David Hicks from Australia, pleaded guilty in March 2007 to providing support to a terrorist organization. He was sentenced to seven years in jail to be served in his home country. Given time off for his five years in captivity, he was released in December 2007.

Since the beginning of the war in Afghanistan in 2002, more than 800 detainees have been imprisoned in Guantánamo. Hundreds have been released without charges. But about 275 are still held, 80 of whom the U.S. has said it expects to put on trial.

Before being taken to Guantánamo, five of the accused were held without charges or legal representation by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (C.I.A.) in secret prisons in Eastern Europe and elsewhere. The George W. Bush administration has acknowledged that at least one of the defendants, Mohammed, was subjected to waterboarding while in custody.

Waterboarding—simulated drowning—has been long acknowledged as torture. The newly appointed U.S. Attorney General, Michael Mukasey, has recently declined to say whether he agreed. But after World War II, the U.S. prosecuted Japanese soldiers for using the practice against its prisoners of war.

Vice President Dick Cheney has vigorously defended waterboarding and other harsh interrogation techniques, referring to them as “a tougher programme for a very few tougher customers”.

Military authorities have declared that no evidence obtained through torture would be used in the up-coming trials. But many legal experts, including Columbia University law professor Scott Horton, have expressed scepticism about whether convictions can be obtained without using the evidence extracted under torture.

Horton told IPS that the timing of the trials was “politically motivated” to strengthen the Republican Party’s chances in the 2008 presidential election. Trying the accused by military commissions was likely to result in “a series of show trials”, he added.

This view was shared by Michael Ratner, president of the Centre for Constitutional Rights (CCR), a New York-based legal advocacy group, which represents one of the defendants, Mohammad al Qahtani, who has been held at Guantánamo for six years and claims to have been tortured during that time.

The military commission system had “none of the guarantees” of trials by normal civilian courts, Ratner told IPS.

He added: “Coerced and hearsay evidence can be used. There is no jury, only a group of military officers and a judge appointed by the Bush administration. Much of the trial can be held in secret and the defendant does not get to see all of the evidence. After this sham process, the defendant, if convicted, can receive the death penalty. There is a barbarity to the actions of the Bush administration that is without precedent.”

Many military lawyers have expressed similar views.

The former head prosecutor at Guantánamo, Colonel Morris Davis, resigned when he was placed directly under the command of the General Counsel of the Department of Defence—a principal architect of the military commissions system.

Lifelong Republican John Hutson, a retired Judge Advocate General—the military’s top lawyer—has become a leading voice among former military officials criticizing the Bush administration’s policies on Guantánamo Bay. Hutson has opposed torture and the precedent it would set for future conflicts.

.

A Pentagon legal advisor and spokesman, Air Force Brigadier General Thomas W. Hartmann, has said the trials would be “as open as possible”. The accused would have the right to call their own witnesses, cross-examine prosecution witnesses and see the evidence presented against them.

“There will be no secret trials,” he has declared.

But Hartmann has declined to answer questions about his stance on waterboarding?  AH< HA, off the proceedings.

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Posted: 12 May 2008 05:40 PM   [ Ignore ]  [ # 30 ]  
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It is a shame that this inquiry will be politicized by both sides and little will be gained beyond posturing and grandstanding.

There are VERY serious questions that are left unsettled.  Among them are the process itself.  That is, before the United States decides to take a position on the Geneva Conventions that “at best” pushes the envelope of their common understanding - shouldn’t the warfighters have first been consulted?  And no, General Counsel Haynes does not quality as a warfighter.

From my understanding, the genesis and genious was limited almost exclusively to: then WH Counsel Gonzalez, Addington, Haynes, and Yoo.  Who among this group felt like they could speak for the Joint Chiefs?  Who felt like they fully appreciated COMMANDER CENTCOMs mission and could speak for him?

 
 
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