w.rabbit: “You obviously have never been in a combat zone, so let me give you a few pointers. <snip> You should know that disobeying a direct order in a wartime situation can be punishable by death.”
It was an ILLEGAL order.
The subordinate was OBLIGATED to disobey.
Why didn’t the SSGT who GAVE the order, do it himself?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm ??
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Who says it was illegal? You don’t/can’t determine that. And to expect a totally exhausted 21 year old soldier to disobey his superior while under duress is a bit much, don’t you think? And btw, the squad leader, in his deposition, said he would have killed the Iraqi himself, but gave the order to Vela because he already had his pistol drawn.
Whether or not the order was legal seems to have been ignored in the military’s rush to pin the whole thing on Vela, to have a scapegoat that we can parade in front of the Iraqis in the name of political expediency.
You believe what you want, which in my opinion is pure hogwash. This kid’s life is ruined because we needed an “example”. Simple as that. If you support what’s happened to Vela, that’s your problem.
Who says it was illegal? You don’t/can’t determine that. And to expect a totally exhausted 21 year old soldier to disobey his superior while under duress is a bit much, don’t you think? And btw, the squad leader, in his deposition, said he would have killed the Iraqi himself, but gave the order to Vela because he already had his pistol drawn.
You still don’t see the contradiction here?
That squad leader’s career is over - even IF he isn’t prosecuted.
Would you rather receive an Article 15 - which can be challenged in a military court, or face 10 years making little rocks out of big rocks at Leavenworth?
By YOUR “logic” what Lt. Calley and his men did was “legal” too.
I’m with Rocket on this one. Snipers are not just some brain dead group of men. They are highly trained people. If the man was making noise, there are many other ways to quiet him. He can be bound so he can’t move. He can be gagged for he can’t yell. He could be knocked unconscious. He could be punched and given the hand gesture to be quiet. Lastly, he should have been knifed if they are there secretly.
With what I saw in the townhall article, it wasn’t enough to get the full picture. Something smells fishy. If the SGT received 10 years the staff SGT who gave the order should have received more than a light Field Grade article 13. In my career, in military law enforcement, he would have at least been demoted to e-4 or more likely E-3/E-2.
I feel bad for his family, but HE should have known better.
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It fills in some blanks but not all. what follows goes to all who read it. Why wasn’t his squad leader charged with giving an unlawful order? It didn’t say that he was acquitted of giving an unlawful order. Many times lawyers will throw multiple charges at a defendant and see what sticks. I would like to see and actual quote from his squad leader. Better yet a signed affidavit. Just because the website has sentences with quotation marks does not mean they are true?
The web site has no collaborating links just other news items about it. I need to see proof not hearsay. Why was Specialist Jorge G. Sandoval acquitted of murder? If he wasn’t present during the shooting, why was he charged? Why was his sentence longer than Staff Sgt. Hensley’s? Why weren’t the other members of the squad charged. What did Sandoval do that was left out of the freeevanvela website.
These are only a few questions I have. I do feel sorry for him and his family, but things are being left out. It’s hard to believe that other members of the squad would all of the sudden come out and want to offer up information on the murder after they were caught sleeping? I think there maybe more to this than trying to get out of trouble for sleeping? I smell a grudge or animosity!
I’m with Rocket on this one. Snipers are not just some brain dead group of men. They are highly trained people. If the man was making noise, there are many other ways to quiet him. He can be bound so he can’t move. He can be gagged for he can’t yell. He could be knocked unconscious. He could be punched and given the hand gesture to be quiet. Lastly, he should have been knifed if they are there secretly.
With what I saw in the townhall article, it wasn’t enough to get the full picture. Something smells fishy. If the SGT received 10 years the staff SGT who gave the order should have received more than a light Field Grade article 13. In my career, in military law enforcement, he would have at least been demoted to e-4 or more likely E-3/E-2.
Now that’s a load of BS. Pure BS. If a superior officer gives a direct order in a war zone and you disobey, under normal circumstances, a good outcome would be 10 years. But lets’s hypothesize. Had Vela said no and as a result, their unit was captured, maybe a couple killed, and the squad leader filed charges (if they survived), Vela would have faced the possibility of a far more grievous outcome. It’s happened before.
And, the squad leader testified that they had tried unsuccessfully several times to silence the Iraqi before he gave the order to shoot. He testified that in his opinion, he had no choice but to kill the Iraqi before he further compromised their position.
And, let’s not forget that they were all suffering from severe sleep deprivation, dehydration, and heat exhaustion. But I’m sure that wouldn’t faze you, Rocket.
And, you think the squad leader’s career is over? By what logic? Even after testifying that he would have killed the guy himself if he’d had his weapon ready, despite being the man who gave the order to shoot, he’s still a sgt and back on duty. He was 100% in support of Vela throughout, and I guarantee you, if he wants to, he’ll retire comfortably.
And if you can’t see the difference between this incident and My Lai, you’re way, way worse off than I thought.
“But lets’s hypothesize. Had Vela said no and as a result, their unit was captured,....”
Riiiggghhht. A sniper squad captured by an Iraqi neighborhood under the sniper’s guns. You seem to have no situational awareness in this matter WR. The snipers were hidden and were baiting civilians. Loss of concealment was their only problem. If the civilians knew they were there then they wouldn’t pick up the bait. The whole idea of baiting the civilians then shooting them is another measure of how far our military has been led into the gutter by the boy king and his criminal admin.
“And, the squad leader testified that they had tried unsuccessfully several times to silence the Iraqi before he gave the order to shoot.”
Sorry, W.rabbit ...
We’re going to have to agree to disagree. There’s no reason to get nasty about it. I can, and have on many occasions, rendered a man unconscious with one punch. THIS guy had a hand gun which could have been used in the same manner as big fist.
You STILL don’t see the contradiction? The squad leader was concerned that their position would be compromised yet he ordered a gun shot? That doesn’t make any sense at all. In case you’ve forgotten, guns go BANG!
Unless it’s made by Acme and wielded by Wile E. Coyote.
Just for the record, I would have levelled the entire place from high above, thus negating the necessity for snipers.
“And, the squad leader testified that they had tried unsuccessfully several times to silence the Iraqi before he gave the order to shoot.”
You STILL don’t see the contradiction? The squad leader was concerned that their position would be compromised yet he ordered a gun shot? That doesn’t make any sense at all. In case you’ve forgotten, guns go BANG!
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“Contradiction” is an understatement. The alleged justification for the shooting was to silence a prisoner who was making noise. A gunshot would have not only exposed their position, it would have alerted any hostile forces within a mile or so that they had visitors. Shooting someone is the last thing you would do if your real concern was to maintain operational silence.
The more likely scenario here is that the Sgt fell asleep, and when he suddenly awoke to find a potential enemy staring down at him, he panicked and fired. When they discovered that the Iraqi was unarmed, they felt the need to create a cover story.
The military takes these events very seriously, and the investigations it conducts leaves few stones unturned. I spent 20 years in the Army/Reserves as an officer in the Military Police Corps,and have been involved in such investigations. If the version of the story reported on the web site is to be believed, the soldier involved would be facing a murder charge.
The more likely scenario here is that the Sgt fell asleep, and when he suddenly awoke to find a potential enemy staring down at him, he panicked and fired. When they discovered that the Iraqi was unarmed, they felt the need to create a cover story.
Your scenario is much more likely
The military takes these events very seriously, and the investigations it conducts leaves few stones unturned. I spent 20 years in the Army/Reserves as an officer in the Military Police Corps,and have been involved in such investigations. If the version of the story reported on the web site is to be believed, the soldier involved would be facing a murder charge.
Is this a typo? Sgt Vela is currently serving time for murder. Or, are you referring that someone else in his squad should be serving time for murder.
Jim M,
Welcome to the forum. Where are you from? Maybe we have met.
You are being kind calling that a typo. What I meant to say is that if his version was to be believed, the Senior NCO who gave the order would also be facing a charge of murder.
You are being kind calling that a typo. What I meant to say is that if his version was to be believed, the Senior NCO who gave the order would also be facing a charge of murder.
BINGO a SGT Vela’s squad leader would be considered to more responsible for the murder than Vela himself. I also find it difficult that the Military jury would try to railroad the young sgt. They, of all people, would understand the situation and would be less likely to convict Vela.
P.S Ignore Wrapper. He is a moron who thinks of nothing else but to denigrate our troops and place the blame on Bush.
