SojerofGod, that’s an excellent post (#31),.../Mr Lynn
Thanks for the reply. I was beginning to think this wasn’t so much a discussion as a Beyotchfight.
Mr Lynn - 21 March 2008 12:29 PM
The new guy, and Obambi himself, believe they are true.
/Mr Lynn
I can’t decide if Rev. Wright believes it or if it is playing to the crowd though i lean toward the former. I don’t think Obama believes it for a second, but really, My impression of Obama, looking at his eyes and seeing how he looks at people is that the talented Mr. O doesn’t much believe in anything but his own advancement,and using leftist ideas to seize and use power.
SojerofGod, that’s an excellent post (#31), and a valiant attempt to get this thread back to rationality. I agree that LBJ arguably had more to do with the degenerate state of the inner cities in America than any other man.
But the preachers spouting crackpot conspiracy theories and indoctrinating their listeners with “hate whitey” propaganda are not helping.
The new Trinity pastor, and Obambi himself refusing to specifically disavow these ridiculous and dangerous accusations that Wright flings about so enthusiastically, lead us to only one conclusion:
The new guy, and Obambi himself, believe they are true.
If you want a man who believes this crap becoming President of the United States, then vote for Obambi. Me, I’m running as fast as I can from this sanctimonious fraud.
/Mr Lynn
I don’t think Obama so much believes the rhetoric as he exploits it for his own political advantage.
But this is why the so-called racial divide continues to exist--the advantage that it confers on power-seekers looking for a highly manipulatable and emotional group as a power base. While Obama is not as egregious as a Sharpton, Jackson, or Farrakhan, he still needed that base of power.
The real sad part is that the rest of America is more ready than the quickly-diffusing black american subculture to move on beyond this illusory racial divide. And the result was we literally sucked up Obama before he was really ready to move beyond his roots. Maybe another 8 years and Obama would have dumped Wright, Black Liberation Theology, and all the rest of that racist trash as he moved to represent Illinois as a diverse state. Same with Obama’s economic and foreign policy nonsense. Maybe a full 10-12 years in the senate would have matured/informed him enough to moderate his more crazy lefty positions--since they don’t work here or anywhere else.
But I view the countries’ responsibility to continue to forcefully reject the race-baiting and anti-Americanism of people like Wright. Thoughtful Americans who also want to be Presidents will observe this dustup and conclude that pandering to/depending upon race-baiting/race card for political gain has a solid ceiling. The country should never back off that ideal and should condemn demagogues like Wright.
You all don’t get it. You don’t accept the fact they don’t take the bait.
Obama will not take the race baiting. In the clip, Reverend Moss doesn’t take the bait. They do not judge - they try to understand. The person that accuses the government of AIDS is angry. Do they have reason to be angry? Yes. Do they lash out at things too far away from rational thought? Yes, they are angry. You don’t tell that man he is being irrational. You tell him that he is being angry, you justify his feelings and himself, you try to find the source of his anger, you help him heal.
Is it right to satisfy their anger by really blaming AIDS on the government? No. Is it right to throw away the angry person? If no one loves them enough to help heal them, maybe it is best. Is it right to blame someone for not turning their back on another person? Not if they are helping them heal.
So, because one is angry it is not right to point out where understanding ends and where dismissing irrational hatred begins?
You all don’t get it. You don’t accept the fact they don’t take the bait.
Obama will not take the race baiting. In the clip, Reverend Moss doesn’t take the bait. They do not judge - they try to understand. The person that accuses the government of AIDS is angry. Do they have reason to be angry? Yes. Do they lash out at things too far away from rational thought? Yes, they are angry. You don’t tell that man he is being irrational. You tell him that he is being angry, you justify his feelings and himself, you try to find the source of his anger, you help him heal.
Is it right to satisfy their anger by really blaming AIDS on the government? No. Is it right to throw away the angry person? If no one loves them enough to help heal them, maybe it is best. Is it right to blame someone for not turning their back on another person? Not if they are helping them heal.
So, because one is angry it is not right to point out where understanding ends and where dismissing irrational hatred begins? I’m sure the 911 pilots were angry too, as was the VaTech shooter.
I agree that LBJ arguably had more to do with the degenerate state of the inner cities in America than any other man.
I usually agree with your thoughts, Mr. Lynn, but I have to differ with you on this one. I don’t think that giving people free time and free money can ever be said to contribute to their degeneration. It might have propelled some to single-parent families, but even that is not an excuse. Fathers have been dying while their children were young, even when divorce was rare, and it was difficult to discern who had grown up with just a mother and who had had both parents. And not being married doesn’t mean that someone can’t act as if they’re married.
On top of that, there are many who would rather make less, but earn it, than be given handouts from someone. This goes to the essence of what the problem might be. It is not definitive, but certainly descriptive. Generally, when confronted with such a decision, on a large scale, groups will organize to retain their independence.
I’m not saying that welfare was not a contributor to the problems, but for many such a program would have spurred them to break free of the humiliation of needing to depend on others. Given the time they had available, there was no excuse not to use it productively.
This is seen in the makeup of store owners in certain neighborhoods. No matter the amount of money available to the community, upon organizing it is always possible to start something significant - and that doesn’t even take into account members of the community that have money (though they left the community).
There are many ethnic neighborhoods that were built because people who did make money didn’t move away, but built bigger in the neighborhood. In some cases they had no choice, really (ethnic politics, as it were) but in most they just liked being there and wanted to stay, though they could build bigger, nicer houses and open more businesses.
Abandonment by those with some success is probably a bigger cause of the degeneration than anything. Maybe they had to leave, but then that raises other questions to be addressed.
I think that welfare comes very far down the list of the causes of the degeneration of certain areas.
EDIT: Furthermore, inner city politics has been run by black politicians for quite a while, now. This has been true on the municipal level and much more in the more local jurisdictions.
. . . I can’t decide if Rev. Wright believes it or if it is playing to the crowd though i lean toward the former. I don’t think Obama believes it for a second, but really, My impression of Obama, looking at his eyes and seeing how he looks at people is that the talented Mr. O doesn’t much believe in anything but his own advancement,and using leftist ideas to seize and use power.
You may be right. But I think, for purposes of the present campaign—
Since Obambi was a fixture in that Trinity church for 20 years, and was thick with Wright for that time, and donated tens of thousands of dollars to Wright and the church;
And since Obambi refuses to discuss and renounce the absurd ravings of Wright, point by point;
Then we must conclude, given this evidence, that Obambi accepts this propaganda and crackpot conspiracy theories lock stock and barrel, believes in them all whole-heartedly, and would attempt to govern as President on the premise that all of Wright’s ravings are true.
Rev. Wright (and his ilk) are a source of Obama’s power and support. To renounce Wright, or his racist, crackpot ideas, would be anathema to Obama. He would be seen as “going over” and abandoning the “victims”. Obama is using Wright and others like him for his political support. If Obama fails in his bid for the Presidency and was to lose his Senate seat, he would be another Sharpton (with a Harvard degree, of course). Wright, Obama, et al should be talking about the “black community” being able to speake an intelligible sentence, to be able to add two plus two, to write legibly, to use language not laced with vulgarity to express a thought, to raise the high school graduation rate, to refrain from allowing racist whites from forcing the crack pipe in their mouths, and reducing the illegitimacy rate. None of these things cost a nickle more in benefits. To promoite those ideas is unfortunately “white”, so it will never sell. And Obama will march on.
I usually agree with your thoughts, Mr. Lynn, but I have to differ with you on this one. I don’t think that giving people free time and free money can ever be said to contribute to their degeneration. It might have propelled some to single-parent families, but even that is not an excuse. . . . I think that welfare comes very far down the list of the causes of the degeneration of certain areas.
‘LBJ’ is shorthand for the egregious War on Poverty, fallacious in its concept and execution. That free money via welfare is not inevitably corrupting is certainly true, as you say. However, then you have to wonder why some populations were so adversely affected. Is there something in the cultural heritage of slavery and/or uprootedness that many people have not yet overcome? I don’t know the answer, but the very fact that welfare reform in many cases reversed the accumulation of deleterious effects in the inner cities suggests that it is.
As long as the country insanely pursues policies proven not only to work but to exacerbate the situation we will have this “racial divide”. McCain is not the man to repair it. But at least he is not the man to increase it.
I don’t want to go back to any of the old stuff either, and I sure don’t want a tax increase for more handouts. BUT ---. When during Katrina I saw those faces looking up at the helicopters, my gut reaction was that it looked like a bunch of baby birds looking to be fed. Upon sober reflection, it seemed to me that scene could play out in very many cities in the US. To me, that’s an American problem, not just a black problem. For one thing, I think we could find some creative things to do with education. Yep, they’d probably cost me more taxes, but we ought to work on this American problem. McCain could propose that.
‘LBJ’ is shorthand for the egregious War on Poverty, fallacious in its concept and execution.
Absolutely.
That free money via welfare is not inevitably corrupting is certainly true, as you say. However, then you have to wonder why some populations were so adversely affected.
This is really the important question. I started outlining some of, what I consider to be, relevant lines of investigation in this respect. At least, lines that I have considered to be paramount in assessing why this situation is as it is.
Is there something in the cultural heritage of slavery and/or uprootedness that many people have not yet overcome?
The Bible has some interesting references, saying that it required a generation to die off (40 years) to remove the cultural influence of those who were enslaved and, essentially, on welfare. But people nowadays have access to so much more. even the poorest inner cities had access to some of the greatest public libraries in the world, and today everyone has access to more information than the richest person in the world had 40 years ago - thanks to the internet. People can take courses free, learn programming free, ... The opportunities are so rife in today’s world that I can’t see any argument that someone is being denied any sort of opportunity. These computers are publicly available, or someone can buy a used machine for $200. And everyone has cable, so I don’t accept the idea that anyone is without access.
I don’t know the answer, but the very fact that welfare reform in many cases reversed the accumulation of deleterious effects in the inner cities suggests that it is.
Well, no matter whether I think if welfare was a source of the problem or not, evidence that welfare reform helps certainly shows that it(welfare and other such programs) should be rolled back as quickly as possible.
Education is where the emphasis needs to be, but the NEA has killed the effectiveness of our schools, and the communities exacerbate these problems. It is a waste to throw any more money at such a failing system. Luckily, as I mentioned above, people can get educated at no cost, these days ... if they want to. And the existence of certification exams (especially in IT) gives them the opportunity to be “accredited” without anyone being able to stand in their way. The SATs also serve this purpose (though they don’t lead directly to jobs as the IT exams do). But these same people who scream about racism and oppression also have problems with standardized tests.
In the end, veggie’s glea at saying that he escaped South Central pretty much says as much as I need to know about the situation. Abandonment kills more than anything and I think the answer to the “welfare effects” dilemma is found there, too. That’s how I see it, at least.
When during Katrina I saw those faces looking up at the helicopters, my gut reaction was that it looked like a bunch of baby birds looking to be fed.
That is the outcome of the whole Liberal “poverty pimp” program.
These people weren’t “baby birds,” they’re able-bodied human beings whom the Nanny Welfare state has turned into nonfunctional, “helpless” dependents.
Upon sober reflection, it seemed to me that scene could play out in very many cities in the US. To me, that’s an American problem, not just a black problem.
Funniest thing: in our nation’s history, we’ve had the San Francisco earthquake, the Johnstown flood and the Chicago Fire and in each of those cases, people took care of themselves and rebuilt with minimal input from the federal government.
It’s called self-reliance and a “can do” spirit; our country was founded on it, not on government handouts.
For one thing, I think we could find some creative things to do with education. Yep, they’d probably cost me more taxes, but we ought to work on this American problem. McCain could propose that.
We’ve thrown hundreds of millions, if not billions at education and the schools still suck…
The best thing McCain can do as President is to see that school vouchers are passed in Congress, that home schooling is encouraged and that somehow the lock that the teachers’ unions have on our schools is lessened.
I don’t want to spend one more dime for “education.”
And that goes double for my local level, where I am taxed a fortune for the schools in my property taxes.
And I don’t have any kids!
For one thing, I think we could find some creative things to do with education.
Yesss, we might try teaching the basics, with facts. That the “educators” have already gotten “creative” is the problem.
Yep, they’d probably cost me more taxes....
There is no reason we need to spend an additional dime on education. Throwing more money at the problem is not the solution, but it is the usual liberal tendancy. It’s what is currently NOT being done with the money that is responsible for the dysfunction.
