Actually, yes - a working copy (it’s still in rough draft form and, I think, missing parts). Someone at NR got a hold of a copy. It’s 326 pages of PDF that only Ted Kennedy can understand (and it refers to amending parts of laws that aren’t posted with the bill.)
One thing to warn you about is that they put all the tough sounding rhetoric (the “enforcement") in front, while all the handouts are buried deep down.
Merci, Charles. I’ll take a good look at the back part.
what is an “open border nut� I don’t know anyone (except socialists) who want open borders - senor lechero
So, what would you do to actually enforce the laws? Apparently nothing. Effectively that means open borders. If you’re not willing to do anything (like deportation) to control the borders, then you want open borders. I didn’t define you that way - you’ve done so through your arguments.
As for your offense at being called a “nut,” I can assure you that those of us in favor of enforcement are routinely called far worse: “racists,” “nativists,” “xenophobes,” and “bigots.”
So don’t make me cry on your behalf.
“Apparently nothing.”? Where do you get that idea? I’ll answer for you. You get that idea from your own closed and ignorant mind. I, and President Bush, and most Americans want a better fence, more border patrol agents, military help, electronic surveilance, positive worker id cards. When an illegal is arrested for anything he should be deported
When you make comments like “I didn’t define you that way - you’ve done so through your arguments” you are LYING. I have never said anything that would lead a rational person to think I want “open borders”
You are the perfect example of how messed up your side of the argument is.
Well in construction, what are ‘labor costs’ if they aren’t wages? - Pandora
Ha! He didn’t say “labor costs,” he simply said “costs.” I suspect he means the profit the developer keeps from the home. That just keeps going up, up, up, thanks to demand induced by open borders.
“before the illegals got here� That’s a hooter. When was that...1492? There have ALWAYS been mexican and central american workers here working.
ALWAYS?
When Mexico owned the Southwest they couldn’t even get Mexicans to come here. That’s why they begged Americans to move to Texas. That’s why in the 1850 census, the first US census after we conquered California, there were only 90,000 people in the whole state.
There were almost no significant Mexican settlements anywhere in the land that we “stole.”
Mexicans today may partially be descended of Indians - but they are descendants of Indians who lived in Mexico. The descendants of the Indians who lived in US territory still live in the US. Guadalupe Hidalgo allowed Mexicans living in the ceded territories to stay. If they left, they left by choice.
Yes charles......ALWAYS.
And I did say “Labor Costs”........go back and read it.
I have never said anything that would lead a rational person to think I want “open borders”
But this is an “open borders” bill. All of the enforcement talk is a joke.
Why must you define it as “open borders”? That’s ridiculous rhetoric. why not just say you don’t believe the enforcement talk and “its a terrible bill”?
Really, I don’t understand the venom from your side.
Why must you define it as “open borders”? That’s ridiculous rhetoric.
Because it will be de-facto open-borders. There will be no more enforcement, since there will be no more illegals. None will be sent back for crimes, since they’ll just start demonstrating in the streets when we start doing that. The border fence idea is beyond a joke. Beyond.
why not just say you don’t believe the enforcement talk and “its a terrible bill”?
Because it will serve to instruct the world that the US’ borders are open to all who can get to Mexico, or crawl up on US shores in any way, shape or form. It’s an invitation to the world to invade without restraint. What’s the worst that can happen to an illegal two years from now, after this legislation is passed and enacted, who is caught, but claims he really got here before Jan 1 2007? How do you prove him wrong? How much money do we spend on every single one doing that? How much will the due-process costs of future enforcement make it all but impossible?
This is not rhetoric.
Really, I don’t understand the venom from your side.
It’s not venom. This bill attacks the sovereignty of the US.
IDP, I agree with every word you wrote. I would add only that there are plenty of plain, everyday Democrats who hate this “amnesty” as much as Republicans do. The politicians don’t seem to understand that they are playing with political fire.
“Senor ‘Charles Oakwood’ Lechero” you need to be willing to compromise your positiion. Don’t be so rigid.
I don’t understand your comment. Would you mind clarifying a bit.
We’re mad as hell and we’re not gonna take it anymore!
I am sick and tired of the house, the senate, and the president all ignoring how the citizens feel about this issue! It’s almost as if they’re standing in the windows of the Capitol and mooning us. No, it’s worse than that, because mooning would mean that they actually recognize that they are going against our collective wills. What they are doing is ignoring us completely.
If any organized rallies do come out of this, then I hope they get brought to our attention. I’d go. And since even the democrats are mad about this, the MSM might even cover them.
A couple of other ideas.
1. (of course) write to your legislators and let them know how you feel. Easy to do for both the senate and the house.
2. If you are a regular or substantial contributer to any political group, write and tell them that you will no longer be giving them any money until they start listening to your voice.
3. Same goes for those letters that beg for money. Return them with a note explaining your angst instead of money.
If any organized rallies do come out of this, then I hope they get brought to our attention. I’d go.
I don’t think there’s any question that someone is going to start organizing a Washington rally some time very soon. I’m set to go and I despise public rallies.
And since even the democrats are mad about this, the MSM might even cover them.
The Dems are only feigning their discontent with this bill in order to help get it passed. Dem voters may well show up to rally against this bill, but Dems pols love it.
I don’t think there’s any question that someone is going to start organizing a Washington rally some time very soon. I’m set to go and I despise public rallies.
While the Powerline Forum was down, I wandered over to some of the other blogs (not as good!) where there’s talk about a national anti-amnesty rally being planned for mid-June. If I can find it again, I’ll post details.
One thing to warn you about is that they put all the tough sounding rhetoric (the “enforcement") in front, while all the handouts are buried deep down.
It’s huge and there’s not even a table of contents.
But certainly better than just having to rely on the pundits.
I just finished a cursory look and one topic that needs scrutiny is the State Impact Assistance Grant on p. 157. As they say, that’s where the money is.
Also this: English is the common language, but nothing shall diminish or expand existing rights to services in other languages. So, if you have to press 1 for English now, that will continue.
IDP, I agree with every word you wrote. I would add only that there are plenty of plain, everyday Democrats who hate this “amnesty” as much as Republicans do. The politicians don’t seem to understand that they are playing with political fire.
“Senor ‘Charles Oakwood’ Lechero” you need to be willing to compromise your positiion. Don’t be so rigid.
I don’t understand your comment. Would you mind clarifying a bit.
thanks in advance
You understand very well.
Uh.......no, I don’t. You call me “senor ‘Charles Oakwood’ Lechero”, which I don’t understand, and you tell me I “need to be willing to compromise” my position, which I laughable. I am willing to compromise on border security first....on the “status” of existing illegal workers who are here now....on future guest workers, on whether guest workers get SSI or not....pretty much everything except “rounding them up and sending them all home”, unless there is a guest worker program to replace them. So I don’t understand your comment, unless you are saying it to yourself.
“Number two, one of the frustrations we have is that no matter what we do, we’ve got our own guys shooting arrows at us, not giving the president credit for having spent more money on border security than anybody before...”
Anyone have a clue where to find information on his spending on this issue?
